Women in ministry
Julie Clawson brought up an interesting link to a talk on women in ministry (here).
Should women minister?
I wrestle hugely with this issue. Both my husband and I value the scripture and treat it as the inerrant word of God, correctly understood. We also believe that scripture is internally consistent, again, correctly understood.
Which, as a very VERY proactive, strong minded, extroverted, not afraid to speak my mind, kind of gal - gets me in big trouble with men of the religious persuasion who believe Paul meant all women, everywhere, at all times, should be quiet in church. I'm not quiet. And I think they're wrong, which means I explain. At which point, I somehow have become "feminist" and my salvation is at question (I only exagerate a very little).
It would seem universally agreeable however, if I minister to children (yes, I may talk there) or be a missionary to some other culture. Just so long as I don't cross their path.
Hmmm....of course they are not being contradictory.
So back to the talk. Thought provoking moments:
Mary and Martha - never linked her sitting at Jesus feet to Paul's comment of sitting at the feet of Gamaliel. That seems reasonable. However, regarding the parts of the house - thought the Jews were much more relaxed about male/female social boundaries. Well, I went online to see what I could find. Hah! Too much of an indeterminate nature. Some sources say women are honored, some say they are not. Nothing specific about women's and men's areas of the house. Anyone have any information to back this up?
Can I just say I'm beginning to be sorry I started to write about this? I spent several hours looking around last night and several hours this morning off and on. This is just not worth it - the issue is really only important to me from a personal standpoint, all honesty intended. And really only important when I'm doing something I should be doing and someone tries to stop me.
So, what do I think? I think all people should love God and love others - and in loving them aid them on whatever path God is taking them. He is the one who blesses ministry and if He is behind it, do we want to go head to head with God? If He doesn't bless the ministry, it will die on its own, right?
Or maybe I'm really just too tired to think clearly about this whole thing...
Thoughts?
Should women minister?
I wrestle hugely with this issue. Both my husband and I value the scripture and treat it as the inerrant word of God, correctly understood. We also believe that scripture is internally consistent, again, correctly understood.
Which, as a very VERY proactive, strong minded, extroverted, not afraid to speak my mind, kind of gal - gets me in big trouble with men of the religious persuasion who believe Paul meant all women, everywhere, at all times, should be quiet in church. I'm not quiet. And I think they're wrong, which means I explain. At which point, I somehow have become "feminist" and my salvation is at question (I only exagerate a very little).
It would seem universally agreeable however, if I minister to children (yes, I may talk there) or be a missionary to some other culture. Just so long as I don't cross their path.
Hmmm....of course they are not being contradictory.
So back to the talk. Thought provoking moments:
Mary and Martha - never linked her sitting at Jesus feet to Paul's comment of sitting at the feet of Gamaliel. That seems reasonable. However, regarding the parts of the house - thought the Jews were much more relaxed about male/female social boundaries. Well, I went online to see what I could find. Hah! Too much of an indeterminate nature. Some sources say women are honored, some say they are not. Nothing specific about women's and men's areas of the house. Anyone have any information to back this up?
Can I just say I'm beginning to be sorry I started to write about this? I spent several hours looking around last night and several hours this morning off and on. This is just not worth it - the issue is really only important to me from a personal standpoint, all honesty intended. And really only important when I'm doing something I should be doing and someone tries to stop me.
So, what do I think? I think all people should love God and love others - and in loving them aid them on whatever path God is taking them. He is the one who blesses ministry and if He is behind it, do we want to go head to head with God? If He doesn't bless the ministry, it will die on its own, right?
Or maybe I'm really just too tired to think clearly about this whole thing...
Thoughts?
posted by Charlotte Wyncoop at 8:53 PM
10 Comments:
so the issue is only a personal one for you? to me it is a lot larger than that. I see denying women ministry roles as quenching the holy spirit - which is generally thought of as sin. So to me it involves working to stop institutional sin within the church (and that stance isn't controversial or anything...)
Hmmm, I often view it as personal - because if I view it as institutional then I have to do something about it more than talk. A lot of the time as I'm thinking about things, I'll view it from a personal stance as a starting place.
My problem is that I have never directly been denied. I have been ignored, patronized, minimalized, and put off. When I talk about wanting to preach or learn to preach, I am not mentored when I ask, even by those I think are open to the concept of women in ministry. So my take on it is this - if I feel God is asking me to preach, then I need to go do it. Do it to my friends by speaking into their lives, do it with my family by shaping their worldview through my language, do it in my plates (which absolutely no one can tell me I can't do). I don't need a congregation to listen to me, if God is going to teach me to do this, or a pastor to mentor me, though I'm sure I would be better quicker for the experience and the mentoring. If I need that position in front of the congregation or with recognition from a pastor, then my question (a serious problem for me) is, am I doing this for personal gain/pride/recognition?
If God calls me to preach, he will open the doors and give me opportunity. My model for this is David. He was annointed king over Israel as a child, grew up and spent years running from Saul, waiting for the Lord to make his promise a reality. I don't want to be Abraham and try to make God's promise a reality through my own efforts. Though in all honesty, I find myself again and again trying to do it on my own.
Is this an institutional sin? Not over the entire body of Christ. Any number of more liberal denominations have no problems with women ministering. Do evangelicals? Yes, because they value the bible so highly they don't know what to do with Paul's comments. I think as we consider these comments more in the context of other biblical comments, they will be relaxed from the literalism applied to them today. Evangelicals, I hope, value the bible enough to recognize the accomplishments of other women noted and realize that a strict interpretation of those verses would contradict the role these women played.
That said, again, it's personal to me in how it affects me and other women out there. Are we quenching the holy spirit? Given that the H.S. resides within us, that is then an individual answer, one for which we will each have to answer to God. I do not envy the men in this however, for the greater accountability is given to those who teach and pass on knowledge.
Institutional sin? I keep dancing around my answer to this - yes, I suppose it is. If this is, then is also any of the other misguided debates about various topics that affect people's actions. We should challenge anything we think is sin and correct it. For me on this issue, it means I need to follow God and do what he asks me to do, whether the institution of the church gives me its blessing or not. Fortunately and finally, my husband was willing to examine these texts and realize that there was room for God to use women in this way. So as far as I am concerned, I am available - perhaps not yet ready, but definitely waiting.
As the husband mentioned, I have opened my mind to the possibilities but think there is still some details that need to be reviewed and ironed out at least in my own mind, opinions and lenses.
In regards to us and our struggle with this, this has been personal as well as the larger issue.
Hopefully we won't be doing traditional "sermons" too often at Via Christus, but I want you to know that when and if we do I would have no hesitation at all in asking you to preach.
And I just wanted to point out that not even all evangelicals restrict women in ministry. Some denominations have a long history of allowing women in leadership (usually various denoms within the whole Methodist/Holiness/Pentecostal sphere - though certainly not all of them - and also many of the anabaptist churches). Also several more mainstream evangelical denoms have allowed women in leadership in recent decades (though often more in theory than in practice). Anyhow, I say this to point out that it's not just "liberals" who realize that the Bible doesn't necessarily have to be read that way. Even some "inerrantists" have made room for it as well.
It all comes back to that "rightly understood thing". Sure the Bible is inerrant, but with so many varying interpretations out there, how can we so arrogant as to claim that we are actually the ones who have finally and totally "rightly understood" what the Bible is really saying on these controversial gray areas? If I'm going to err, I want to err on the side of empowering people who want to do the work of the kingdom, not on hindering kingdom work.
I should have included the holiness churches - given that's the bible school where I was educated. The student body there reflected the larger culture, though the theology classes taught both views and left it open to discussion. As a side note, the theology professor I had is the current president.
BTW, yes it is the middle of the night. I awoke with Corwin in bed beside me and no Matt (:() so I'm letting Corwin settle down (can I get him back to his own bed??). Matt's isolating himself in the guest bedroom trying not to catch this.
Back to the discussion, many "evangelicals" don't acknowledge the holiness/pentacostals within their ranks because they're too "enthusiastic" in their interpretation of the Holy Spirit's work. Mainstream holiness evangelicals like the Nazarene denomination have the same problems, despite their structure for allowing women in ministry. To some degree this suggests that it is a broader cultural issue, rather than a theological issue, if the people of churches that allow women in ministry can't even accept them.
Can I say Julie, I'm glad you read this and furthered the discussion? I had gotten tired of surveying the various theological camps and honestly, every time I read how women can't minister, I'm emotionally wounded. I can only deal with it a little at a time.
Mike, I appreciate your vote of confidence. But at the same time, I hesitate when I read it. Are you "voting" because that is your theological position, or because you think I personally may be being called to preach and am ready for it? I feel like those are two very different things.
In all this, my biggest priority is to establish what God wants and what Matt is comfortable with. I feel that more than anything it would be incredibly wrong of me to divide our relationship over this issue. I'm relying on God to open his heart to whatever God intends for us both. In a sense, that is my check and balance to keep from reacting out of rebellion or personal interest. Like David, I will wait.
Both.
Thank you.
And there are more ways to "preach" (or "prophesy" to use the more biblical term) than just through sermons. When you share insights with the group (like you did during worship last Saturday) or perform a drama or testify from your heart about something God's been doing in your life those are also a form of "preaching". In fact, I hope to incorporate those forms of preaching/prophesying as regular parts of our worship with Via Christus in place of or at least in addition to the traditional sermon.
"Preach" interestingly is what I've always associated with firing up the controversy over the broadest spectrum of groups. Well, at least "preach" defined as speaking in front of congregations at church. I find it interesting that "preach" as used in the Bible seems defined by context as proclaiming good news and is associated with evangelism. Yet, I haven't heard of any groups, except those who don't allow women any role at all involving men, saying that women shouldn't be involved with spreading the good news, speaking of Christ, or general evangelism, especially in their daily lives and aimed at anyone, male or female. Though many groups advise that when "praying the prayer of salvation," it's better to have a same sex partner to eliminate "missionary dating." I've always thought it's a bit late at that point, but then again, the guy was trying to convert me before dating me anyway!
Prophesy, speaking forth the mind and counsel of God, also seems to encompass the role of teacher, a traditionally female role, at least of children. Prophesy is a role allowed by Paul in the presence of men, specifically 1 Cor 11:5.
Funny how our denotations and connotations change. Or rather, not funny.
Good point. In scripture "preaching" usually means evangelism and "prophesying" is what we do in the presence of other believers. (Though it gets muddled when we start talking about contemporary "seeker services".)
And Peter also specifically says that both men and women will prophesy in the sermon at Pentecost.
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